Hello fellow visceral realists! Today is the day to start reading The Savage Detectives! This week’s reading is up to page 74 in the edition I am reading (Picador paperback from the U.S.). If you are reading a different edition, we are reading up to November 20.
The spoiler discussion for this section should start on Saturday, Feb. 17. Please do not post spoilers before then. Up to that date, please feel free to post some general thoughts or questions, maybe some favorite passages, little tidbits (that are not spoilers). On and after Feb. 17 go ahead and talk about anything in this section.
1) How was your experience in general? Did any of you give up (and yet stick around for this discussion :) ). Are any of you tempted to give up? I'd love to know your reasons if so.
2) This is a pretty frank and explicit section of the text, and while I don't think Bolaño was ever bashful I think he bases our narrator on a relatively famous author who often had his characters disrobing. Do you see any other things going on with this kind of narrative? It is also interesting that Luscious Skin is based on an author named Jorge Hernández "Piel Divina." I'm going to miss so many of these sly references in the book!
3) Related to the prior note a bit, this book was published in Spanish in the late 1990s and in English in the mid-2000s. Things have changed since then for sure. I think the toxic masculinity is quite apparent, but I'm not 100% sure it was back then. That said, Bolaño does seem to be somewhat sensitive to the violence underlining the relationships.
4) How do you like the idea of visceral realism? Like many things in the novel, it is based on a real poetic movement called infrarealism, which Bolaño helped start.
5) It's interesting that this first section is told by someone that I don't think plays a large role in the bulk of the novel. I haven't read the book, so I don't know, but it's my understanding that this is primarily about Arturo Belano and Ulises Lima. Juan García Madero seems to have his own stuff going on.
6) It's not a major theme in this section (maybe it becomes one?) but I have always loved Bolaño's ability to set up a narrative with unseen threats and vague paranoia. I have some favorite passages to share on this, but right now I have to run!
Feel free to respond about anything above or share your own questions / comments!
1. Interesting structure..every day our narrator goes out and usually gets into a wild adventure, ending with a wild and crazy 2+ days and nights , with a collection of many of the previous characters coming into play. I am wondering if this is just his way of introducing the characters that will have bigger parts later? I don't know if I can handle this many new characters every week as I have several pages of notes describing them. Have to say that I am glad to hear there will be another narrator (one of the 2 visceral poets) who hopefully already knows everybody!
2. Loved the way Madero discovers what books each character he meets is reading and tries to find and buy them!
3. You mentioned the graphic content. Surprisingly it didn't bother me (a 76 year old woman) as it seemed almost informative but not "gross". I have been known to slam a book shut if the sex scenes just seem written for shock value!
4 I am anxious to keep reading....just hope a different narrator will go into more depth with the main characters, not just their sexual proclivities and history , though I will probably keep reading either way as I find Bolano's writing very compelling!
This reading is starting off really good. I went into this section with low expectations because last time I read it I loved the book but would comment I didn’t really like the first section. I think on a first reading of this section you can get overwhelmed by all the characters. There’s also the horny young poets and lack of interest i had in their sexual exploits, but I can see this is just Maderos sexual awakening that is coinciding with his literary awakening. I say these things because I hope no one is giving up, it gets so much better. The characters all become our easily recognized friends. I love this quote “every book in the world is out there waiting to be read by me”, I love being back in the world of Bolano where everyone is a poet and everyone reads. In this world we describe people by who they read, e.g. “the next pictures showed the Brian Patten reader fucking the blond boy” (30 pages earlier Madero asked Epifanio what books he was carrying, one was “Little Johnnys Confession” by Brian Patten).
P.S. I was waiting for a separate post for this week I didn’t realize we would comment on last weeks post. Hopefully everyone reading along comes back here!
Connor Davis wrote, "P.S. I was waiting for a separate post for this week I didn’t realize we would comment on last weeks post. Hopefully everyone reading along comes back here!"
I agree. I love the Substack platform, but think posts and responses work best with when the topics are introduced more frequently, thus limiting the number of responses that will be posted.
This is the post for the first week’s reading and discussion. I will be posting the remaining discussion posts on the days of their discussions since it possibly has confused people that this was published earlier.
The thing that strikes me most about the characters and the text is how contradictory everyone seems to be. One example that springs to mind is when our poet Garcia Madero makes an off-hand remark based on some assumptions about Lupe's job and her pimp and she viciously lashes out at him for it, and later when they get on a different topic, he says something else and adds "...sorry Lupe, no offense." To which she replies "You couldn't offend me if you tried." (Nov 16, p. 40-45 in Picador edition) (Of course, there's technically a distinction here where in the first instance she was "sticking up for her man, who was insulted" vs. herself being the one insulted, but it still stands out to me)
Or else see how Quim tells Juan (paraphrasing) "we don't stand on ceremony here, Garcia Madero," and after Juan says "My name is Juan," Quim says "No, I'd better keep calling you Garcia Madero. That's what everyone else calls you." (Nov 17, p. 46)
It has a sort of Wes Anderson-like dry ironic humor to me, and this happens a lot. In Wes Anderson the scene that exemplifies this perfectly to me is this one in The Life Aquatic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG3RcokIxRk (from 0:34 to ~1:20 specifically). It really hits that note of understated absurdity so well.
Last example, I find this has a meta level of irony to it, is that sometimes our own diary writer himself contradicts himself. The main example that springs to mind is when he wakes up at 3AM in the Font's house after smoking weed, he off-handedly mentions how he "hates details" but then describes very precisely how he went to the kitchen and made himself not one, but two sandwiches, describing the ingredients in each, followed by leftover mole and "real bread" AND he even washes dishes before moving on. That was one long paragraph from someone who hates details. :) (Nov 18, p. 56-57)
So that's what I really noticed so far. It reads really easy and I'm enjoying it a lot. Though I think Juan needs some sleep. My adolescent all-nighters always took a solid 12 hours of sleep to recover from, personally!
The "if you're paying attention" humor is great. I especially laughed at Lupe's inconsistency. I think people like to think one way about themselves and Bolaño is showing us how they can't live up to their ideals. It's an individual failure which mirrors the failures of the Visceral Realist movement.
Trevor wrote, "3) Related to the prior note a bit, this book was published in Spanish in the late 1990s and in English in the mid-2000s. Things have changed since then for sure. I think the toxic masculinity is quite apparent, but I'm not 100% sure it was back then. That said, Bolaño does seem to be somewhat sensitive to the violence underlining the relationships."
Personally, I find this to be consistent with period and cultural trends so I feel no need to criticize the book beyond that. Late 1980's and early 1990's seemed the peak of toxicity before there was a big pushback and Bret Easton Ellis' American Psycho was 1991. Bolaño is not going beyond what was accepted at the time and in this first part even seems to be poking some fun at it, through his narrator's exaggerations.
I think Wimmer does a great job, but certainly some choices stand out…including the title! Years ago I interviewed Chris Andrews, who also has translated a lot of Bolaño, and in the interview he referred to this book as The Wild Detectives. I’m fluent in Portuguese and proficient in Spanish, though I’m no translator. Any other thoughts are very welcome.
This is my first time reading The Savage Detectives, so this is not my opinion on whether “savage” or “wild” is more correct when applied to Bolaño’s book. I think both Andrews and Wimmer are exceptional translators, and I’m not even sure if it was Wimmer or the publisher who chose the title. My words here are more of an exploration. You can determine whether “savage” was le mot juste.
When I first arrived in Brazil, I remember hearing about all of the “savage” (“selvagem”) animals. I was in the Amazon area, so I assumed “selvagem” connoted what “savage” does in contemporary English, something dangerously wild and uncontrollable, something coldly vicious. Then someone said they had a cat that was “selvagem,” and I learned that in Portuguese the word “selvagem” (and in Spanish the word “salvaje”) is often used in the same way we in English use “wild” to mean untamed, feral, or even undomesticated (I have an idea that undomesticated, with its connotations of homelessness and wandering, might work well in Bolaño’s book). None of those words necessarily mean vicious or cold. But then again, neither does savage, particularly as it used to be used. Its great to see what baggage words pick up over the years.
Whether “savage” was used because it fits the text or whether it was used because it is more marketable, I don’t know. It does sound a bit more compelling than “The Wild Detectives,” though, doesn’t it? But even if “savage” is wrong because it connotes the wrong meanings in English, “The Wild Detectives” might not connote in English the same ideas as “salvaje” does in Spanish. I might think of unruly as opposed to feral if “wild” were used.
One thing’s for sure, the art of translating is truly an art. Translators deserve much more credit than they get.
Yes, it's true that 'salvaje' in Spanish has both the meanings of 'wild/untamed animal' and 'savage' - it depends on context. It's interesting that in all other Germanic languages, the word 'wild' has indeed been used in the title - Die wilde Detektiven, De wilde detectives, De vilde detektiver. We do have the issue in English that 'wild detectives' may sound more like 'wild and crazy' than 'untamed', but English 'savage' also has strong primary connotations of 'brutal', 'barbarian', that are much more weak/secondary in Spanish (or other Latin languages). It was a tricky choice. Honestly, your idea of 'feral' might have been a really good option!
But 'Luscious' has specific oral connotations that neither 'divino' nor 'divine' have - that one I find much more questionable.
1) Not only did I not give up, I devoured the book and read ahead. Oops!
2) The Frankness of the text is rather tame compared to some literary books I’ve read from some earlier writers (E.L. Doctorow’s The Book of Daniel from 1971 for example). So not phased, though I sometimes wonder about the necessity. But, this section either is a personal journal, so in a way it’s as private as it is frank.
3) While there’s certainly some toxic masculinity going on, this book reads like a feminist manifesto when considering the machismo culture of that time period (both the time he’s writing about and the publication year). Much of it may have been missed . . . maybe?
4) I think the Visceral Realists movement has the force of young energy and about as much chance of sustaining itself as the fire of a first love.
5) Yes, the first part being so disconnected narrative from the rest of the book is simply genius. Brave even. You give a character a story, build up his personality, his own sense of importance in the lives of so many, and then let him vanish behind the bulk of words which have nothing to do with him. I’m thinking about the narrator of Pedro Páramo who at some point dies whilst the book continues on without him, the kid whose primacy in Blood Meridian vanishes for most of the middle of the novel, and even to a lesser extent Slothrop from Gravity’s Rainbow.
6) Oooh! Paranoia? I’ll be on the lookout for that.
I think that it is telling that most of the visceral realists (in fact, all but Belano and Lima, whom we barely know at this point) are not genuinely visceral realists . . . and maybe they're not even really poets. It seems they have latched on to a trendy movement that, at their age, feels somewhat forbidden and helps them have some street cred that helps them get marijuana and women. I'm not sure if which pathway García Madero might take.
I'm not yet even sure that Belano and Lima (who as you say we barely know yet) are 'really' visceral realists, as much as they came up with the cool name and have managed to whip up some mystique around it. Much sound and fury signifying nothing?
Though I’ve been tempted, I have not yet started the book, wanting to start on the official start date (for no really good reason, folks should read at the pace they like). I will be starting soon!
Are any of you starting with the introduction by Natasha Wimmer? I did, and I thought it was a nice way to get my mind ready for Bolaño (it’s been a few years since I last read him). I also didn’t find it spoilery at all, if you’re worried about that kind of thing.
I agree, no spoilers at all. For other prereads, I read An Oasis of Horror in a Desert of Boredom by Jonathan Russell Clark, which although is in response to 2666, it does goe into detail on Bolaño's life.
I also read the introduction to The Savage Detectives - Reread by David Kurnick, which was really great, and if there were spoilers I missed them.
I have US paperback it’s the book on the left when looking at the image of this thread. Confused as to why I don’t have this intro! I’ve searched online for it but it’s nowhere.
Happy Saturday, everyone! Feel free to jump in and discuss the first reading selection! Paul and I just got done recording the a podcast episode, or I'd have started in here a bit sooner, but you can always feel comfortable to jump in and discuss!
Finally getting a chance to catch up on the thread and really enjoying everyone’s insights and comments!
I have been getting a kick out of all the teenage passion, drama and literary enthusiasm, but have to admit I’m also glad to hear that we’ll branch off into other areas soon. That said, I’ll echo the comment someone made about enjoying how much Bolano’s books center around reading and writing. I often think about the conversation that takes place in 2666 where to characters are debating the smaller and more precise works of an author versus their bigger, messier books: “Now even bookish pharmacists are afraid to take on the great, imperfect, torrential works, books that blaze a path into the unknown. They choose the perfect exercises of the great masters. Or what amounts to the same thing: they want to watch the great masters spar, but they have no interest in real combat, when the great masters struggle against that something, that something that terrifies us all, that something that cows us and spurs us on, amid blood and mortal wounds and stench.”
2066 very much lands in the latter category, but I’ll be very curious to see where The Savage Detectives ends up on that spectrum!
And the boys stealing books reminded me of another book I recently reread: Severina by Rodrigo Rey Rosa, who Bolaño called “the most rigorous writer of my generation, the most transparent . . . the most luminous of all.”
It also had some of that same sense of paranoia and uneasiness that Trevor mentioned regarding Bolano’s work.
So fun to see everyone on here! I was a bit delayed this week but got a good start last night. So nice to be back with Bolaño! I initially skipped the introduction (I've been burned before) but after reading the comments below, I think I'll give a try.
Bolano once said “All American novelists, including those who write in Spanish, at some point get a glimpse of two books looming on the horizon…two fates…. One is Moby Dick and the other is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.” I also recall either him or a critic saying 2666 is his Moby Dick and Savage Detectives is his Huckleberry Finn, and I think that’s just a perfect and cool comparison.
I love the idea of all serious American novelists having to contend with Moby Dick and Huckleberry Finn in turn. The two are favorites of mine and Bolano is quickly becoming a favorite contemporary writer.
I am usually not one who likes explicit books, but for some reason this isn't bothering me so much, this is (so far) the tale of a teen boy exploring his independence and sexuality for the first time in the era of free love, so doesn't seem horribly out of place. The self-absorbedness and arrogance mixed with overconfidence and simultaneous ignorance of the world, also rang fairly true. A lot of fake it till you make it. That said, I'm glad it's not going to be 600+ pages of teen boy exploring these topics!
I also am finding a lot of humor in it. I feel like Bolaño is poking (warm-hearted) fun at these young men and this stage of life, and completely sees their ridiculousness alongside their earnestness and passion. I found it read quickly and I had to pause for a few days to not get ahead (which is very much not a problem as I'm juggling lots of other books!)
One of the humorous tics that repeats is that everyone wants to call him García Madero when he asks to be called Juan because 'that's what everyone calls you'.
A note: you *cannot* reduce his name to "Madero" - in Spanish it's the FIRST of the two family names (the one from the father) that is essential - if you drop one, it has to be the second. So if you call him by his last name, he'd be García Madero or just García; both of the last are his family names, and the 'optional' one is the second.
Erin wrote "I also am finding a lot of humor in it. I feel like Bolaño is poking (warm-hearted) fun at these young men and this stage of life, and completely sees their ridiculousness alongside their earnestness and passion."
I agree with you 100%. This satirical almost self-mocking is what drew my attention most in this first part. I am interested where this will go when Bolaño starts shifting perspective.
1) Years ago, I tried The Savage Detectives, didn't get far & didn't remember why other than I felt bored by it. But, I know it's influential, so many literary people love it & I decided to join this group read.
Started it again about a week ago & was soon reminded (at least partly) why I didn't like it. It quickly felt like self-important teen poets who talk about explicit stuff a lot, drinking, & name-dropping other poets. Maybe that captious poet outlook would have been entertaining in my 20s but reading it in my 50s just makes me feel cantankerous & side-eyeing it as misogynistic puffery. Saw somewhere a mention of "like Kerouac" (which didn't bode well for me either as I didn't like On the Road). I was fully prepared to drop it (again) but follow along in the conversation to see what I could glean.
But, Erin & I are in some other groups together & her talking about reading it & posting a Youtube lit review of it piqued my interest (again), I had my "The Godfather" movie moment ("Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!") & so here I am having read the first section for this week.
2) Who is the famous author who often had his characters disrobing? Luscious Skin is an arresting name for sure. I did laugh about the comment about someone believing there is a "Skin" family living out there, somewhere in Mexico. I too will probably miss a million references.
3) I think the time of writing it, translating it, & now reading it do force different perspectives on it. For sure, there's misogyny & toxic masculinity. I'm in a "wait & see" mode on this as I read in re: to those aspects. I have certainly read plenty of other books that have those traits so it's not like it's something new in the literary world.
4) I find the fact that our narrator doesn't even know what visceral realism is to be funny. I did read a little bit about the movement Bolaño helped establish & supposedly one thing they would do is go to poetry readings, then shout their own poetry louder. Which seems pretty obnoxious to me (again, that self-importance). It also fits perfectly with the age range of our characters, the restlessness, the radicalness, ....
5) & 6) I don't really have comments on these areas yet.
Other than initially being turned off by it, I am pleased at the humor in it. It's definitely funnier than I expected. And I think Bolaño (as well as Wimmer in the translation) has done well by capturing a certain vibe.
Regarding the toxic masculinity: for the most part I find the females to be strong characters with their own desires and I find them to be more in control than the boys. The only part I found problematic was the scene of the waitress getting hit by her boss while the boys just shrug it off saying that things aren't always what they seem.
Anybody have any recommendations of books or poems from authors mentioned so far?
Poems, Protest, and a Dream by Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz (penguin classics) I may read for women in translation month.
Octavio Paz - Libertad bajo palabra (cátedra) is excellent
Looking forward to this read-along. Started it today along with Shawn the Book Addict's upcoming READ ALONG which is OF HUMAN BONDAGE. What a hilarious comparison between the opening pages of both! Let the fun begin!🥳📚📚📚💖
Just found out about the read-along today while listening to the latest podcast episode. I will soon run to the (conveniently located) bookstore down the street and see if they have it! Excited to get started!
I do wonder why he choose Lee Harvey Oswald for the magazine title it’s provocative but he could used jack ruby or lone gunman these little questions always crop up in my mind
Because he's famous enough that he was notorious even in another country even for young people who didn't keep up with global news. He's the headline, the other stuff is details. Even I had to google to remember who Jack Ruby is. He's also the bad guy, which is more provocative. Lone Gunman is generic.
Also, Lee Harvey Oswald defected to the Soviet Union for bit (1959 to 62). A previous US Marine doing that during the Cold War was pretty big news & more likely to have caught the notice of an international audience, adding to his infamy after the assassination. I don't know how much that may have been covered in various media outlets around the world but it might have been a factor that made LHO more known.
ETA: Among groups of radicals, I think his defection &/or the assissination might have been seen as "sticking it to the man", perhaps even making him lauded in some circles. Again, imo.
Yes one questions whether the violence would been played down now I like our narrator he is so naive at the start of this I’m listening on audio and reading the novel mine is the us edition
Here are the weekly reading threads. I'll update this as they go up.
-Preliminary Thread: https://mookse.substack.com/p/the-savage-detectives-preliminary/comments
-Week 1: https://mookse.substack.com/p/week-1-the-savage-detectives-readalong/comments
-Week 2: https://mookse.substack.com/p/week-2-the-savage-detectives-readalong/comments
-Week 3: https://mookse.substack.com/p/week-3-the-savage-detectives-readalong/comments
-Week 4: https://mookse.substack.com/p/week-4-the-savage-detectives-readalong/comments
Some things I'm curious about:
1) How was your experience in general? Did any of you give up (and yet stick around for this discussion :) ). Are any of you tempted to give up? I'd love to know your reasons if so.
2) This is a pretty frank and explicit section of the text, and while I don't think Bolaño was ever bashful I think he bases our narrator on a relatively famous author who often had his characters disrobing. Do you see any other things going on with this kind of narrative? It is also interesting that Luscious Skin is based on an author named Jorge Hernández "Piel Divina." I'm going to miss so many of these sly references in the book!
3) Related to the prior note a bit, this book was published in Spanish in the late 1990s and in English in the mid-2000s. Things have changed since then for sure. I think the toxic masculinity is quite apparent, but I'm not 100% sure it was back then. That said, Bolaño does seem to be somewhat sensitive to the violence underlining the relationships.
4) How do you like the idea of visceral realism? Like many things in the novel, it is based on a real poetic movement called infrarealism, which Bolaño helped start.
5) It's interesting that this first section is told by someone that I don't think plays a large role in the bulk of the novel. I haven't read the book, so I don't know, but it's my understanding that this is primarily about Arturo Belano and Ulises Lima. Juan García Madero seems to have his own stuff going on.
6) It's not a major theme in this section (maybe it becomes one?) but I have always loved Bolaño's ability to set up a narrative with unseen threats and vague paranoia. I have some favorite passages to share on this, but right now I have to run!
Feel free to respond about anything above or share your own questions / comments!
Thoughts from week 1 reading:
1. Interesting structure..every day our narrator goes out and usually gets into a wild adventure, ending with a wild and crazy 2+ days and nights , with a collection of many of the previous characters coming into play. I am wondering if this is just his way of introducing the characters that will have bigger parts later? I don't know if I can handle this many new characters every week as I have several pages of notes describing them. Have to say that I am glad to hear there will be another narrator (one of the 2 visceral poets) who hopefully already knows everybody!
2. Loved the way Madero discovers what books each character he meets is reading and tries to find and buy them!
3. You mentioned the graphic content. Surprisingly it didn't bother me (a 76 year old woman) as it seemed almost informative but not "gross". I have been known to slam a book shut if the sex scenes just seem written for shock value!
4 I am anxious to keep reading....just hope a different narrator will go into more depth with the main characters, not just their sexual proclivities and history , though I will probably keep reading either way as I find Bolano's writing very compelling!
This reading is starting off really good. I went into this section with low expectations because last time I read it I loved the book but would comment I didn’t really like the first section. I think on a first reading of this section you can get overwhelmed by all the characters. There’s also the horny young poets and lack of interest i had in their sexual exploits, but I can see this is just Maderos sexual awakening that is coinciding with his literary awakening. I say these things because I hope no one is giving up, it gets so much better. The characters all become our easily recognized friends. I love this quote “every book in the world is out there waiting to be read by me”, I love being back in the world of Bolano where everyone is a poet and everyone reads. In this world we describe people by who they read, e.g. “the next pictures showed the Brian Patten reader fucking the blond boy” (30 pages earlier Madero asked Epifanio what books he was carrying, one was “Little Johnnys Confession” by Brian Patten).
P.S. I was waiting for a separate post for this week I didn’t realize we would comment on last weeks post. Hopefully everyone reading along comes back here!
Connor Davis wrote, "P.S. I was waiting for a separate post for this week I didn’t realize we would comment on last weeks post. Hopefully everyone reading along comes back here!"
I agree. I love the Substack platform, but think posts and responses work best with when the topics are introduced more frequently, thus limiting the number of responses that will be posted.
This is the post for the first week’s reading and discussion. I will be posting the remaining discussion posts on the days of their discussions since it possibly has confused people that this was published earlier.
The thing that strikes me most about the characters and the text is how contradictory everyone seems to be. One example that springs to mind is when our poet Garcia Madero makes an off-hand remark based on some assumptions about Lupe's job and her pimp and she viciously lashes out at him for it, and later when they get on a different topic, he says something else and adds "...sorry Lupe, no offense." To which she replies "You couldn't offend me if you tried." (Nov 16, p. 40-45 in Picador edition) (Of course, there's technically a distinction here where in the first instance she was "sticking up for her man, who was insulted" vs. herself being the one insulted, but it still stands out to me)
Or else see how Quim tells Juan (paraphrasing) "we don't stand on ceremony here, Garcia Madero," and after Juan says "My name is Juan," Quim says "No, I'd better keep calling you Garcia Madero. That's what everyone else calls you." (Nov 17, p. 46)
It has a sort of Wes Anderson-like dry ironic humor to me, and this happens a lot. In Wes Anderson the scene that exemplifies this perfectly to me is this one in The Life Aquatic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG3RcokIxRk (from 0:34 to ~1:20 specifically). It really hits that note of understated absurdity so well.
Last example, I find this has a meta level of irony to it, is that sometimes our own diary writer himself contradicts himself. The main example that springs to mind is when he wakes up at 3AM in the Font's house after smoking weed, he off-handedly mentions how he "hates details" but then describes very precisely how he went to the kitchen and made himself not one, but two sandwiches, describing the ingredients in each, followed by leftover mole and "real bread" AND he even washes dishes before moving on. That was one long paragraph from someone who hates details. :) (Nov 18, p. 56-57)
So that's what I really noticed so far. It reads really easy and I'm enjoying it a lot. Though I think Juan needs some sleep. My adolescent all-nighters always took a solid 12 hours of sleep to recover from, personally!
The "if you're paying attention" humor is great. I especially laughed at Lupe's inconsistency. I think people like to think one way about themselves and Bolaño is showing us how they can't live up to their ideals. It's an individual failure which mirrors the failures of the Visceral Realist movement.
Trevor wrote, "3) Related to the prior note a bit, this book was published in Spanish in the late 1990s and in English in the mid-2000s. Things have changed since then for sure. I think the toxic masculinity is quite apparent, but I'm not 100% sure it was back then. That said, Bolaño does seem to be somewhat sensitive to the violence underlining the relationships."
Personally, I find this to be consistent with period and cultural trends so I feel no need to criticize the book beyond that. Late 1980's and early 1990's seemed the peak of toxicity before there was a big pushback and Bret Easton Ellis' American Psycho was 1991. Bolaño is not going beyond what was accepted at the time and in this first part even seems to be poking some fun at it, through his narrator's exaggerations.
Ew. They translated "Piel Divina" as Luscious Skin rather than Divine Skin? Why??? Somebody made a choice...
I think Wimmer does a great job, but certainly some choices stand out…including the title! Years ago I interviewed Chris Andrews, who also has translated a lot of Bolaño, and in the interview he referred to this book as The Wild Detectives. I’m fluent in Portuguese and proficient in Spanish, though I’m no translator. Any other thoughts are very welcome.
This is my first time reading The Savage Detectives, so this is not my opinion on whether “savage” or “wild” is more correct when applied to Bolaño’s book. I think both Andrews and Wimmer are exceptional translators, and I’m not even sure if it was Wimmer or the publisher who chose the title. My words here are more of an exploration. You can determine whether “savage” was le mot juste.
When I first arrived in Brazil, I remember hearing about all of the “savage” (“selvagem”) animals. I was in the Amazon area, so I assumed “selvagem” connoted what “savage” does in contemporary English, something dangerously wild and uncontrollable, something coldly vicious. Then someone said they had a cat that was “selvagem,” and I learned that in Portuguese the word “selvagem” (and in Spanish the word “salvaje”) is often used in the same way we in English use “wild” to mean untamed, feral, or even undomesticated (I have an idea that undomesticated, with its connotations of homelessness and wandering, might work well in Bolaño’s book). None of those words necessarily mean vicious or cold. But then again, neither does savage, particularly as it used to be used. Its great to see what baggage words pick up over the years.
Whether “savage” was used because it fits the text or whether it was used because it is more marketable, I don’t know. It does sound a bit more compelling than “The Wild Detectives,” though, doesn’t it? But even if “savage” is wrong because it connotes the wrong meanings in English, “The Wild Detectives” might not connote in English the same ideas as “salvaje” does in Spanish. I might think of unruly as opposed to feral if “wild” were used.
One thing’s for sure, the art of translating is truly an art. Translators deserve much more credit than they get.
Yes, it's true that 'salvaje' in Spanish has both the meanings of 'wild/untamed animal' and 'savage' - it depends on context. It's interesting that in all other Germanic languages, the word 'wild' has indeed been used in the title - Die wilde Detektiven, De wilde detectives, De vilde detektiver. We do have the issue in English that 'wild detectives' may sound more like 'wild and crazy' than 'untamed', but English 'savage' also has strong primary connotations of 'brutal', 'barbarian', that are much more weak/secondary in Spanish (or other Latin languages). It was a tricky choice. Honestly, your idea of 'feral' might have been a really good option!
But 'Luscious' has specific oral connotations that neither 'divino' nor 'divine' have - that one I find much more questionable.
1) Not only did I not give up, I devoured the book and read ahead. Oops!
2) The Frankness of the text is rather tame compared to some literary books I’ve read from some earlier writers (E.L. Doctorow’s The Book of Daniel from 1971 for example). So not phased, though I sometimes wonder about the necessity. But, this section either is a personal journal, so in a way it’s as private as it is frank.
3) While there’s certainly some toxic masculinity going on, this book reads like a feminist manifesto when considering the machismo culture of that time period (both the time he’s writing about and the publication year). Much of it may have been missed . . . maybe?
4) I think the Visceral Realists movement has the force of young energy and about as much chance of sustaining itself as the fire of a first love.
5) Yes, the first part being so disconnected narrative from the rest of the book is simply genius. Brave even. You give a character a story, build up his personality, his own sense of importance in the lives of so many, and then let him vanish behind the bulk of words which have nothing to do with him. I’m thinking about the narrator of Pedro Páramo who at some point dies whilst the book continues on without him, the kid whose primacy in Blood Meridian vanishes for most of the middle of the novel, and even to a lesser extent Slothrop from Gravity’s Rainbow.
6) Oooh! Paranoia? I’ll be on the lookout for that.
I think that it is telling that most of the visceral realists (in fact, all but Belano and Lima, whom we barely know at this point) are not genuinely visceral realists . . . and maybe they're not even really poets. It seems they have latched on to a trendy movement that, at their age, feels somewhat forbidden and helps them have some street cred that helps them get marijuana and women. I'm not sure if which pathway García Madero might take.
So much this.
I'm not yet even sure that Belano and Lima (who as you say we barely know yet) are 'really' visceral realists, as much as they came up with the cool name and have managed to whip up some mystique around it. Much sound and fury signifying nothing?
I'm sure we'll discover more in part 2!
Though I’ve been tempted, I have not yet started the book, wanting to start on the official start date (for no really good reason, folks should read at the pace they like). I will be starting soon!
Are any of you starting with the introduction by Natasha Wimmer? I did, and I thought it was a nice way to get my mind ready for Bolaño (it’s been a few years since I last read him). I also didn’t find it spoilery at all, if you’re worried about that kind of thing.
I agree, no spoilers at all. For other prereads, I read An Oasis of Horror in a Desert of Boredom by Jonathan Russell Clark, which although is in response to 2666, it does goe into detail on Bolaño's life.
I also read the introduction to The Savage Detectives - Reread by David Kurnick, which was really great, and if there were spoilers I missed them.
Also picked up the Kurnick and echo what Cameron said
Which version has the introduction? My Picador does not have one. I also did a quick search and did not see anything online
It is the first paperback edition from the US. The introduction is copyright 2008.
If you have the UK version I have, there's an afterword instead, but I'm pretty sure it's the same piece - it's by Natasha Wimmer anyway.
I have US paperback it’s the book on the left when looking at the image of this thread. Confused as to why I don’t have this intro! I’ve searched online for it but it’s nowhere.
Happy Saturday, everyone! Feel free to jump in and discuss the first reading selection! Paul and I just got done recording the a podcast episode, or I'd have started in here a bit sooner, but you can always feel comfortable to jump in and discuss!
Finally getting a chance to catch up on the thread and really enjoying everyone’s insights and comments!
I have been getting a kick out of all the teenage passion, drama and literary enthusiasm, but have to admit I’m also glad to hear that we’ll branch off into other areas soon. That said, I’ll echo the comment someone made about enjoying how much Bolano’s books center around reading and writing. I often think about the conversation that takes place in 2666 where to characters are debating the smaller and more precise works of an author versus their bigger, messier books: “Now even bookish pharmacists are afraid to take on the great, imperfect, torrential works, books that blaze a path into the unknown. They choose the perfect exercises of the great masters. Or what amounts to the same thing: they want to watch the great masters spar, but they have no interest in real combat, when the great masters struggle against that something, that something that terrifies us all, that something that cows us and spurs us on, amid blood and mortal wounds and stench.”
2066 very much lands in the latter category, but I’ll be very curious to see where The Savage Detectives ends up on that spectrum!
And the boys stealing books reminded me of another book I recently reread: Severina by Rodrigo Rey Rosa, who Bolaño called “the most rigorous writer of my generation, the most transparent . . . the most luminous of all.”
It also had some of that same sense of paranoia and uneasiness that Trevor mentioned regarding Bolano’s work.
So fun to see everyone on here! I was a bit delayed this week but got a good start last night. So nice to be back with Bolaño! I initially skipped the introduction (I've been burned before) but after reading the comments below, I think I'll give a try.
Bolano once said “All American novelists, including those who write in Spanish, at some point get a glimpse of two books looming on the horizon…two fates…. One is Moby Dick and the other is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.” I also recall either him or a critic saying 2666 is his Moby Dick and Savage Detectives is his Huckleberry Finn, and I think that’s just a perfect and cool comparison.
Yes, very cool! And coincidentally, I've just finished rereading Huck Finn.
LOL, and I'm currently rereading Moby Dick! Almost done!
I love the idea of all serious American novelists having to contend with Moby Dick and Huckleberry Finn in turn. The two are favorites of mine and Bolano is quickly becoming a favorite contemporary writer.
Get your Mezcal ready folks
More musings...
I am usually not one who likes explicit books, but for some reason this isn't bothering me so much, this is (so far) the tale of a teen boy exploring his independence and sexuality for the first time in the era of free love, so doesn't seem horribly out of place. The self-absorbedness and arrogance mixed with overconfidence and simultaneous ignorance of the world, also rang fairly true. A lot of fake it till you make it. That said, I'm glad it's not going to be 600+ pages of teen boy exploring these topics!
I also am finding a lot of humor in it. I feel like Bolaño is poking (warm-hearted) fun at these young men and this stage of life, and completely sees their ridiculousness alongside their earnestness and passion. I found it read quickly and I had to pause for a few days to not get ahead (which is very much not a problem as I'm juggling lots of other books!)
One of the humorous tics that repeats is that everyone wants to call him García Madero when he asks to be called Juan because 'that's what everyone calls you'.
A note: you *cannot* reduce his name to "Madero" - in Spanish it's the FIRST of the two family names (the one from the father) that is essential - if you drop one, it has to be the second. So if you call him by his last name, he'd be García Madero or just García; both of the last are his family names, and the 'optional' one is the second.
Bolaño's full name is Roberto Bolaño Ávalos.
Erin wrote "I also am finding a lot of humor in it. I feel like Bolaño is poking (warm-hearted) fun at these young men and this stage of life, and completely sees their ridiculousness alongside their earnestness and passion."
I agree with you 100%. This satirical almost self-mocking is what drew my attention most in this first part. I am interested where this will go when Bolaño starts shifting perspective.
To try to answer Trevor's questions...
1) Years ago, I tried The Savage Detectives, didn't get far & didn't remember why other than I felt bored by it. But, I know it's influential, so many literary people love it & I decided to join this group read.
Started it again about a week ago & was soon reminded (at least partly) why I didn't like it. It quickly felt like self-important teen poets who talk about explicit stuff a lot, drinking, & name-dropping other poets. Maybe that captious poet outlook would have been entertaining in my 20s but reading it in my 50s just makes me feel cantankerous & side-eyeing it as misogynistic puffery. Saw somewhere a mention of "like Kerouac" (which didn't bode well for me either as I didn't like On the Road). I was fully prepared to drop it (again) but follow along in the conversation to see what I could glean.
But, Erin & I are in some other groups together & her talking about reading it & posting a Youtube lit review of it piqued my interest (again), I had my "The Godfather" movie moment ("Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!") & so here I am having read the first section for this week.
2) Who is the famous author who often had his characters disrobing? Luscious Skin is an arresting name for sure. I did laugh about the comment about someone believing there is a "Skin" family living out there, somewhere in Mexico. I too will probably miss a million references.
3) I think the time of writing it, translating it, & now reading it do force different perspectives on it. For sure, there's misogyny & toxic masculinity. I'm in a "wait & see" mode on this as I read in re: to those aspects. I have certainly read plenty of other books that have those traits so it's not like it's something new in the literary world.
4) I find the fact that our narrator doesn't even know what visceral realism is to be funny. I did read a little bit about the movement Bolaño helped establish & supposedly one thing they would do is go to poetry readings, then shout their own poetry louder. Which seems pretty obnoxious to me (again, that self-importance). It also fits perfectly with the age range of our characters, the restlessness, the radicalness, ....
5) & 6) I don't really have comments on these areas yet.
Other than initially being turned off by it, I am pleased at the humor in it. It's definitely funnier than I expected. And I think Bolaño (as well as Wimmer in the translation) has done well by capturing a certain vibe.
Okay I got my copy down from the shelf where it's been gathering dust and I'm joining in!
Not sure what qualifies as a spoiler - but I didn't expect we'd start with a horny teenage poet. Perhaps this is Bolaño writing what he knows :)
"Now that I've gotten that over with, I've had some time to think about the poem." - LOL
Regarding the toxic masculinity: for the most part I find the females to be strong characters with their own desires and I find them to be more in control than the boys. The only part I found problematic was the scene of the waitress getting hit by her boss while the boys just shrug it off saying that things aren't always what they seem.
Anybody have any recommendations of books or poems from authors mentioned so far?
Poems, Protest, and a Dream by Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz (penguin classics) I may read for women in translation month.
Octavio Paz - Libertad bajo palabra (cátedra) is excellent
Looking forward to this read-along. Started it today along with Shawn the Book Addict's upcoming READ ALONG which is OF HUMAN BONDAGE. What a hilarious comparison between the opening pages of both! Let the fun begin!🥳📚📚📚💖
I’m glad you’re here with us, Peg! I’ve never read Of Human Bondage, but I do imagine these side by side would be quite the reading project!
Just found out about the read-along today while listening to the latest podcast episode. I will soon run to the (conveniently located) bookstore down the street and see if they have it! Excited to get started!
I’m glad you found it in time! Welcome!
I do wonder why he choose Lee Harvey Oswald for the magazine title it’s provocative but he could used jack ruby or lone gunman these little questions always crop up in my mind
Because he's famous enough that he was notorious even in another country even for young people who didn't keep up with global news. He's the headline, the other stuff is details. Even I had to google to remember who Jack Ruby is. He's also the bad guy, which is more provocative. Lone Gunman is generic.
Also, Lee Harvey Oswald defected to the Soviet Union for bit (1959 to 62). A previous US Marine doing that during the Cold War was pretty big news & more likely to have caught the notice of an international audience, adding to his infamy after the assassination. I don't know how much that may have been covered in various media outlets around the world but it might have been a factor that made LHO more known.
ETA: Among groups of radicals, I think his defection &/or the assissination might have been seen as "sticking it to the man", perhaps even making him lauded in some circles. Again, imo.
A partial character list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Savage_Detectives#Characters
Yes one questions whether the violence would been played down now I like our narrator he is so naive at the start of this I’m listening on audio and reading the novel mine is the us edition
Where can I find the reading schedule? Thanks
Here, I'm pasting in the schedule that isn't tied to which version of the book you have:
Week 1, Feb 10-17: Up to "November 20"
Week 2, Feb 18-24: To the end of Part 1
Week 3, Feb 25-Mar 2: To the end of Part 2, chapter 6
Week 4, Mar 3-9: To the end of Part 2, chapter 9
Week 5, Mar 10-16: To the end of Part 2, chapter 15
Week 6, Mar 17-23: To the end of Part 2, chapter 19
Week 7, Mar 24-30: To the end of Part 2, chapter 23
Week 8, Mar 31-Apr 6: To the end of Part 2
Week 9, Apr 7-13: To the end of the book
Thanks for inviting me, Erin! (Cynthia from RoC discord)
Thanks Erin!
I'm also finding that compulsion - I'm going to struggle to wait til next week to read the next section!
I also finished and I can't wait for next week. I'm trying to restrain my curiosity from propelling me forward into week two's reading!